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If you believe the old adage to write what you know, there’s little questioning the logic in Sofia Coppola, who’s over 25 years into one of America’s most esteemed filmmaking careers, finally making the jump to documentaries with a portrait of her fashion-mogul friend. Divisive though they sometimes prove, nobody on Earth comes away from a Coppola picture thinking it lacked for sartorial sense — it’s a camera-eye trained on texture, a mind attuned to the psychological weight of shoes or shorts.
“Marc by Sofia,” per the title, puts us in the company of Marc Jacobs, whose interest as a subject commingles with Coppola’s decades-long friendship. It’s the loudest and most propulsive film she’s ever made, using a sea of clips, photos, and music cues to serve as an encyclopedia of New York’s cultural lifeblood over the last 35 years.
On the occasion of “Marc by Sofia”’s March 20 release, I met Coppola and Jacobs (vaping, as he’s often doing in the film) at A24’s offices to discuss the picture’s personal and public significances — including vast autobiographical instincts that, while initially seeming a stretch, only reveal new shades the closer one looks.
This interview has been edited for clarity.
IndieWire: Some would have it that documentaries are an entirely different medium. That’s something we can debate, but I immediately noted this movie’s visual sense. The first time we see Marc, he’s framed elegantly: right-of-center, negative space, plumes of smoke coming off the vape. About an hour in, you make this location change, and he’s now in his pajamas. There’s a structural and visual sense here. Could you talk a bit about not recording another “talking head” interview, but photographing a talking head and showing him in his environment?
Sofia Coppola: Yeah, I didn’t want to have […] important fashion people talking about Marc with those talking-head interviews. I didn’t want to make a conventional, TV-academic documentary. I wanted to make a portrait of a person I know and hope that it felt personal while including the audience along on this journey of watching this collection come together. At the same time, we together archive his work over the years. Also, a big part of it is: I wanted to include all the references that Marc always talks about, that I know about through him — artists that he’s into, and having Rachel Feinstein do the set of the show and movies. We always talk about Fosse. So just to weave all these elements together and just feel like you’ve spent time in his world for that 90 minutes.
‘Marc by Sofia’A24There’s a very free-feeling visual sense here. There are a couple of moments when we see Marc talking, and the camera kind of goes in and out of focus.
Coppola: [Laughs] That would be my camerawork. I’m very self-conscious. No, a lot of it’s just me with a little, tiny Sony camera in his office.
Marc Jacobs: There was no production team. Not in that part.
Coppola: No, yeah. And then one at the desk my brother shot, we have a picture of him sitting on the floor. It’s very homemade. I wanted it to feel like there’s no art — it’s just natural. But I was just following around with my little camera, and afterwards I’m like, “Oh my god, why didn’t I hold it more steady?”
I can’t recall seeing an in-and-out-of-focus shot in one of your narrative features.
Coppola: Because I have professional cinematographers. [Laughs] No, this was more homemade.
But it seems like it’s fun for that reason.
Coppola: Oh, good. I always like things that are scrappy and homemade. It just feels like home movies. I like things that aren’t too professional.
Marc, so much of the movie is watching you work, watching you talk, watching you just walk around. What was your feeling actually seeing this? I could pull up a million videos of you talking and walking, so maybe it’s not that weird.
Jacobs: No, it was a little weird. We both have our version of… like Sofia says, “It’s Marc, we’re friends,” so she felt this responsibility to do something good because it was me. We both had this anxiety about, “Well, will I like it?”
Coppola: I was very nervous for him to see it for the first time, and I wanted to show him before we went too far in a direction, but yeah: I wanted him to feel comfortable with it.
Jacobs: And I did, and I was happy, and I remember saying at the end, “I didn’t hate myself.” I really liked me — how I came across — and it did feel natural, and it did feel like this really beautiful portrait, and I loved all the clips that were included and everything that we’ve shared over the years, and also during that particular process of that show […] I was really relieved and very happy.
Coppola: Oh, good. I was relieved.
After I saw it, a huge fan of yours texted me, “So are you a fan of Marc Jacobs now?” I said I was.
Coppola: Oh, that’s good.
Jacobs: Yeah, me too.
Coppola: It was fun to spend that time with Marc, coming into the office and seeing what goes on — all the in-between moments that I don’t usually get to see.
But I’ve seen more of your work than I even totally realized. Your clothing appears in “Gossip Girl” —
Jacobs: Yes, it does!
— and on “The Hills,” “Gilmore Girls.” There’s an amazing dress that Mia Kirshner wears in “The L Word” that you designed.
Jacobs: Yeah, yeah. There’s been a few. There was certainly a period where a lot of actresses…
Coppola: We didn’t put that! We missed that part. [Laughs]
Jacobs: Yeah, I remember they asked me to do something on “The Hills,” right? Didn’t Lauren Conrad, or…
Coppola: Were you… were you on “The Hills”?
Jacobs: Yeah. [Laughs]
Coppola: Oh my god, we missed that!
Jacobs: And then there’s like “The Devil Wears Prada” moment with the bag. I feel like there was definitely a couple of parts of my career where what we did was very out there.
‘Marc by Sofia’A24Do you think that having your work put into a setting that’s even more mediated and fictionalized than a fashion show had some influence on your work at that time? Maybe a kind of feedback loop?
Jacobs: I mean, it’s fun when that happens, but I don’t think it was deliberate or intentional, you know. It was kind of like, “Oh wow, it ended up somewhere else,” you know, or it went somewhere else. But I don’t think there was any real… it wasn’t contrived to be that, or deliberate, or anything like that. It was just more, like I said, an, “Oh wow, they used it, or she wears it, or they mention me.” You know.
Coppola: It’s fun to see.
Sofia, since you started picking up a camera, people have said that your films were autobiographical. And often that claim seems like a projection, but I was kind of galvanized when you first appear in this movie — a clip or a photograph in the opening montage — and then we’re actually seeing you onscreen directing yourself, which I don’t think you’ve ever really done before.
Coppola: Oh, you mean when I appear next to Marc?
Or when you’re walking into the building and going in the elevator.
Coppola: Yeah, my brother helped me come shoot the first day, and then I think he was like, “Get in there with Marc.” I wanted to feel like I’m a part of making it without being in it too much, but it’s clearly part of that — his friend is making it. So you hear my voice. I wanted it to feel personal that I’m making it, but without being in it too much.
Right. So it didn’t feel too weird to be directing yourself.
Jacobs: You didn’t think of it that way.
Coppola: Yeah, I wasn’t thinking of it that way. I think just my brother was like, “Oh, hop in there with Marc, let’s see you guys together.”
Jacobs: The whole thing went like that by, the way.
Coppola: it wasn’t really planned.
Jacobs: It wasn’t, yeah. There was no opening shots of Sofia.
Coppola: Yeah, no, it was just kind of grabbing stuff and then the editing, moving, putting it together like a collage.
Jacobs: It just all felt so natural and easy and then, also, surprising. I didn’t know where Sofia would go with it in terms of the editing. I remember at one point I said, “Well, she’s only filming that one show?” And it didn’t even feel like that much. You were backstage, and you came up to a couple of fittings; we talked about the inspiration of some things. But I was like, “Oh I wonder what this is going to be.”
Coppola: There was so much archival stuff that we added in because we hadn’t filmed that much. But I was definitely figuring out as I was going and watching Marc do the same thing. So that was interesting to see — someone else’s creative process — but I always feel like, anything I make, I want it to feel like I made it, because that’s what I like about other filmmakers: seeing things that only they would make and having some personality in it.
Jacobs: Across the board, in terms of creativity, I respond most to when you can sense the person who made it in it. So that autobiographical thing: I’m really interested in the work and the result — the end result — but if I don’t feel the person involved in the process, then I’m just less interested in the work.
I’m glad I don’t seem too much like the harebrained auteurist coming in and drawing the connections.
Coppola: Oh, no! it’s funny to see it in different… because a lot of stuff you don’t think about when you’re just making it.
Jacobs: Yeah, it is great when somebody… like, when you have an audience, when they meet the work that you’re making, and they tell you what they see in it. I think that’s exactly what you want: Someone who’s actually had an experience. They got something from that, you know?
At one point you use “A Whiter Shade of Pale,” a song I first heard in “New York Stories,” which you of course co-wrote one segment of.
Coppola: Oh! Yeah, that was Scorsese’s. I mean, that’s a stretch. It’s interesting that you connected that. Why not?
In the film we see people who you and your family have worked with — Winona Ryder most notably — or we hear Philip Glass’ score for “Mishima,” a film your father [Francis Ford Coppola] executive produced. I found myself thinking about this movie in a weird, implicit way — maybe emphasis on implicit — as almost this portrait, or explication, of influences you and your family have had on American culture for the last 50 years.
Coppola: Oh, wow. I never thought of it like that. I feel like it’s a coincidence that my dad worked with Winona Ryder — just part of the culture of that time.
Yeah, sure.
Coppola: Marc always is such an encyclopedia of culture to me, of learning about artists and films that we both love — and the artists that he’s worked with in his show, and Sonic Youth was at a show, and Rachel Feinstein did the sets — [and] how to incorporate all of that so, hopefully, it’s preserved, and some kid might see it […] Our assistant editors were watching a lot of the movies they had never seen from the clips that we had, so [it was] a way to kind of share all of that. Us being of the same era, there’s people that crossover in movies and music.
Jacobs: Listening to the two of you, there’s that thing of, “Well it just seemed accidental. None of that was deliberate.” But then: is it really accidental? Because it is stuff that we’ve all been through, and so it’s there, it’s somewhere. It’s not completely accidental — it’s part of everything you know.
If nothing else, it’s a testament to how the two of you combine, and it’s this multi-headed monster of culture whose influence is so cascading that it’s just going to bring in things. Again: me the harebrained auteurist, I’m just scribbling notes.
Coppola: [Laughs] Yeah, that’s interesting. It’s fun to see what things you draw together.
Jacobs: When, at the end of the show, people — editors and people — would come backstage and they would tell me what they saw and I would think, “Well, it isn’t what I was thinking, but that you saw it is really interesting.” That’s always good when that happens.
Your films have some of the most quiet, patient visual sense of any modern movies, and “Marc by Sofia” is so different formally — there’s such a forward-momentum, almost assaultive assemblage of clips, photos, music. How did you find yourself embracing that? Was there a comfort adjustment in making a movie that is actually this packed?
Coppola: It was fun. It felt like, “Let’s put everything in a blender.” Because I wanted it to be an impression of Marc. So it’s just putting all these things in a blender and making a collage, and I wanted it to have the energy of Marc and his creativity and going to a show. But yeah: It’s totally the opposite of [laughs] a super-low, slow take. It was fun to be loud and colorful and energetic. It just felt like it suited the subject and all these memories and something fun.
‘Marc by Sofia’A24I found myself, as quick as I could, jotting down songs in the end credits that I didn’t recognize.
Coppola: Oh, good. We should have a playlist. Chad [Sipkin], the editor, really helped me, and it was so fun. It’s always fun to put the music together with the images
Jacobs: Well, all the music in all of your movies has been great.
Coppola: Oh. I love that part. [Laughs]
Jacobs: Yeah, it shows.
Coppola: The end Strokes song [“I’ll Try Anything Once”] was in “Somewhere,” and I was like, “Oh, can I not reuse something I’ve used before?” But then it just felt right for that moment. It was the most emotional for that moment, more than anything I tried.
The song in the end credits?
Coppola: Where it’s all the finales of Marc’s shows, the Strokes song.
Well, Scorsese can reuse “Gimme Shelter.” I think you have license.
Coppola: Oh, he used it more than once? In the same movie, or…
In “The Departed” and “Goodfellas.“
Coppola: Oh, really? Oh, the “Goodfellas” soundtrack is just one of my favorite things of all time. The way he uses music, it’s so exciting.
If I made a playlist of the songs that your movies have introduced me to it would just be like…
Coppola: Long? Oh, that’s cool. I’m so glad. But yeah: It’s always exciting when you get the song you want, and it was so fun to do that. Yeah, and this was really fun, to put all the images together with the music.
I came out of the movie with this new admiration for Jacobs’ work and thinking that you seem like a neat guy, but something I appreciate about the movie is that you do include at least that one moment where you’re getting anxious about timing because you want to start the show on the dot. Which I think is great. Everything should start on the dot.
Jacobs: Well, I’m good about that now!
I’m curious about some of the interplay: capturing and including moments that aren’t unflattering at all, but they are honest.
Coppola: I wanted it to feel real — and there wasn’t a lot of drama going on — but to me, it’s comforting to see that Marc gets nervous. I get nervous before showing a film. It’s just natural, so I think it’s nice for people seeing the creative process — there’s all parts and I didn’t want it to be, like, a puff piece. I wanted to show the different, you know, real sides.
Jacobs: And I’m good with being transparent — especially with Sofia, who I’m super-comfortable with. I was like, “OK. This is it. This is me. This is what happens.” I remember you and Roman [Coppola, Sofia’s brother] backstage before the show. Typically I would be so stressed if it were somebody I wasn’t comfortable with — like, didn’t know — because that is probably the most stressful moment of the process: right before the show.
‘Marc by Sofia’A24It feels crazy recommending a movie to Sofia, and it feels really crazy recommending a fashion thing to Marc, but seeing the clips of Saint Laurent and his sketches made me think of Bertrand Bonello’s film, which I really love.
Coppola: Is it a…
Biopic.
Coppola: Oh I know there were two made of him.
Jacobs: At the same time, right?
Coppola: Who’s the actor that played him?
Gaspard Ulliel.
Coppola: I saw one of them, but I don’t remember which one I saw. I’ll look.
Jacobs: Yeah, I saw one too.
Coppola: And you loved it?
Oh, it’s one of my favorite films.
Coppola: [To Jacobs] Have you seen that?
Jacobs: I’m not sure which one I saw, either.
Coppola: Yeah, there were two that came out around the same time, so I don’t remember either. But I’m going to look now.
It’s germane to “Marc by Sofia” because it’s a really incredible access into his world
Jacobs: Does it show a lot of rivalry between him and Karl Lagerfeld?
Not really, no.
Jacobs: So it’s not the one I’m thinking of.
More than a couple people have compared it to “Marie Antoinette,” actually.
Jacobs: Really?
Coppola: Ah!
An unconventional biopic with ecstatic needle drops — that sort of thing.
Coppola: I’m confused, because there were two at the same time. I’m going to look for that.
Jacobs: And one that was kind of accepted by the Saint Laurent people and the other one that was, like, frowned upon.
Coppola: You hear that rumble about two stories, and one gets on the nerves because the estate didn’t approve everything. I felt like the Amy Winehouse movie…
Jacobs: Did you like that movie?
Coppola: Well, I enjoyed it. But I felt the problem was that they had to get the dad’s permission, and so they didn’t have any of that complexity of what was going on there.
Jacobs: I liked that movie.
Coppola: I saw it in the theater with Romy, and I really enjoyed it. At first I was like, “Wait, no, this is weird,” and then I really went with it.
Jacobs: Now I wonder which one it was.
Coppola: Now I want to check. So Gaspard is the actor in the one that you liked?
Yeah.
Coppola: OK.
Assistant: It has Léa Seydoux in that one, too.
Jacobs: [To Assistant] What’s her name in that one? Do you remember the model — the French model — who was in a couple of our shows? Was she in that one?
[Silence]
Jacobs: Wow. You’ve opened a whole can of worms! [Laughs]
“Marc by Sofia” opens in theaters Friday, March 20.
English (US) ·