How Do You ‘Inadvertently’ Get Lorne Michaels to Be Your Next Documentary Subject? Morgan Neville Explains

Morgan Neville’s “Lorne,” his new documentary about Lorne Michaels, opens with the admission that Michaels has “inadvertently” agreed to have a documentary made about him. Then, we see Michaels, inside 30 Rockefeller Plaza, where both the studio and offices of his “Saturday Night Live” reside, shuffling away in an attempt to avoid Neville’s cameras.

How can this even be possible? Wouldn’t Michaels, at some point, have to say “yes” or “no”? (I’ve been to 30 Rockefeller Plaza many times and there is a lot of security, so a camera crew can’t really just wander in without being on some sort of a list.) So, of course, this is a question I presented to Neville during a recent interview, who said, “It just kind of happened.”

Again, it doesn’t seem feasible that a documentary about Lorne Michaels can “just kind of happen.” Neville then told the entire story. After listening to this story, here’s the thing: he makes a really good case that it did indeed “just kind of happen.”

So, how does one make a documentary about a subject who doesn’t seem all that thrilled about the prospects of being in a documentary? Neville brings in Robert Smigel to reprise his “TV Funhouse” animated version of Lorne to fill in some gaps and, naturally, has many many stories from current and former cast members and writers.

But there is one former original cast member who Neville really wanted, who wouldn’t agree to be in the film. Though, this cast member did offer to send a letter. Ahead, Neville reveals who this cast member is (of course it’s Dan Aykroyd). Neville also takes us into the process of making a documentary about one of the most famous and powerful figures in entertainment, who never fully agreed to have a documentary made about himself. 

We begin with the part of the film that covers the iconic 1992 moment in which musical guest Sinéad O’Connor tore up a picture of the pope, live on “SNL.” Michaels points out that people forget there was a sketch that aired right after this happened. Tim Robbins was the host that night and, coming back from commercial break after this iconic moment, the world was introduced to “Sweet Jimmy, The World’s Nicest Pimp.” 

The following interview has been edited and condensed for clarity and length.

IndieWire: In retrospect, “Sweet Jimmy” is now one of the funniest things I’ve ever seen.

Morgan Neville: We just had our first screening of this film, the premiere was Thursday night, the first time we screened it with an audience. And that got such a laugh. It made me so happy. 

I watched the sketch. He really is a nice pimp. 

You do something and you hope it’s going to be funny, then a year-and-a-half later you finally hear the laughs you thought of a year-and-a-half before.

In the film, there’s a segment about how Lorne’s Wikipedia entry is wrong. That it says he was, “born on a kibbutz on land donated by Palestinians who were leaving anyway,” which is something Paul Simon made up…

Yes.

A few years ago, Lorne’s publicist asked if I’d write a piece disputing this so Wikipedia would change it. We came up with the idea that I’d interview Lorne and only ask him this one question. But then at the last minute he didn’t want to do it. 

[Laughs] And it’s still there on Wikipedia!

How is that possible?

I think Lorne even told me a story that he met somebody from Wikipedia. They talked about it and they said, “We can change it, but they are just going to change it back.” 

‘Lorne’Courtesy of Focus Features.

How long has Lorne Michaels been in your sights as a documentary subject?

I have been an “SNL” fan, like a lot of people, forever. Really my whole life. My dad was a comedy nerd and, with our Betamax machine, he started recording “SNL” from the beginning. But about 10 years ago, I kind of made a list of dream projects. Lorne was on that list. 

You make it clear at the beginning of the film that Lorne doesn’t want to do this film. Why did he agree to do something he didn’t want to do? What’s the dynamic?

It was very confusing. Because I never exactly pitched him on the idea of me making a film about him. And he never said, “Yes, I agree for you to make a film about me.” It just kind of happened.

Well, it just can’t “kind of happen.” How? That’s the part I want to know. 

I met him in early 2023, a couple of years before SNL 50. The conversation was, hey, we should do something for SNL 50 in the documentary space, do you have any ideas? I said I think you should make a series of different standalone films about “SNL.”

So he said, “Why don’t you come to New York next week and pitch me your ideas?” It was a show week, Friday night, 9:00 pm. I go to Lorne’s office to meet him. I’m thinking it will just be the two of us, but I walk in and there are 16 people in the room. And it’s all the senior writers and producers…

So like Steve Higgins and that crew…

Higgins, all of them, Erik Kenward, Erin Doyle. And he said, “What are your ideas?” So I stand up in front of this room and, for 20 minutes, I pitch ideas.

Well, that sounds very intimidating. 

But I also know, OK, you just have to suck it up and go for it. I have a dozen ideas. Talking about politics at “SNL,” the “Cowbell” sketch, auditioning — I pitched a bunch of different ideas. I finish after 20 minutes and I sit down on the couch next to Lorne and he doesn’t say anything. Then, finally, I say, “So, what did you think?” And he turns to one of his producers and says, “Caroline, what did you think?” And she, initially, says, “I think there were some good ideas there? You know, we’ll see.” She tosses the hot potato to someone else and no one really wants to answer. And Lorne never says anything. So, I walk out of the meeting and think, What just happened? Katie Hockmeyer, the head of late night, was there and she says, “That went really well. I think he wants you to do these.” 

But, one of those ideas I pitched was, “There can be a documentary about you, Lorne.” So, we didn’t decide what those ideas were, but word came back later that Lorne might be interested in one of the episodes being about him. But then I said, if I did that, then Lorne couldn’t have anything to do with it. So that’s why there are only four of the SNL 50 documentaries. The fifth one was supposed to be “Lorne.” I said, look, if I’m going to do this, it can’t have anything to do with Broadway Video.

And Lorne isn’t really those four docs. In “The Weird Year” there’s an archive interview with him, but nothing current.

Nobody interviewed him for any of those four episodes. People were saying, “We want to hear from Lorne.” What I wasn’t allowed to say at the time was there’s a whole Lorne documentary out there. For whatever reason, they didn’t want it to get caught up in the 50th [anniversary]. So, anyway, that’s a lot of backstory for how it happened. And I wound up doing it more independently and it wound up going to Focus Features. And then we were just kind of … doing it. 

‘Lorne’Courtesy of Focus Features. © 2

Now I do understand why you say, “it just happened.” 

The first thing I did, I went with a tape recorder to his office and just started having a conversation. Because I wanted to see what the film would be, but also to see how he describes his own story. And, what I realized, Lorne cannot narrate his own story. Lorne doesn’t talk about his own story the way most people talk about their own story. He doesn’t speak in a linear fashion. He speaks abstractly and philosophically and anecdotally. So, I realized, Lorne is not going to sit here and walk me through his entire story. 

So, basically, you were working on the other four docs, but also doing this film, but are we doing this film? And he’s openly trying to avoid you.

The line I put in the documentary is, “Lorne has inadvertently agreed to have a documentary made about him.”

When I was watching it I was thinking that can’t be true, because he has to say yes or no. But it sounds like he was hemming and hawing, and during the hemming and hawing process the film started.

Yeah, I mean, one of his friends said there’s nobody who more really wants a film made about them and really doesn’t want a film made about them than Lorne. And Lorne is known for giving people mixed signals. And I, 100 percent, was in that space. And on day one of filming, when I pulled a camera out to start filming, that is what you see at the beginning of the film. He started running away. He disappeared and I thought it was a bit. Then I realized, oh, he really doesn’t want to be on camera. What am I going to do? But I feel like, over those two years, I got much closer to him. But in that way when you’re making a nature documentary the animal gets used to you being there. And you can get a little closer every time. 

Until it tries to bite you. Is there something you got close to getting but he won’t talk about?

The thing is, you can ask him anything. You just may not get an answer. Me asking him about Sinéad O’Connor, the answer is, “Nobody remembers there was a sketch after it.” That’s what I mean when he speaks in tangents. But one thing I take away from that very answer is Lorne is worried about the show and he’s worried about the thing immediately in front of him. That’s the thing I don’t think people fully appreciate. I think people think of Lorne as sitting on a throne of who makes it in comedy and who doesn’t make it in comedy. But I think Lorne is in the trenches feeling like he’s just trying to get through this week’s show. 

And as he says in this film, he’s worried about what will happen to his shows after he’s gone. Look at what’s happening with Colbert. When Lorne leaves, what happens to “The Tonight Show” and “Late Night”?

He knows that. That’s part of it. It is his other child. There is this relationship between the two. And I think he does it, certainly, to protect the show. But I was at the show last Saturday night, sitting with him during the show…

The Colman Domingo show? 

Yes. He invited me to come sit with him under the bleachers.

‘Lorne’Courtesy of Focus Features. © 2

What was that like?

It’s good. I mean, I watched him a lot. Once the show is going, he can’t do that much. He’s still reacting. I think he’s worried about time and everything else. But he’s done what he can do and the show has to happen. The person I was with at the show said, “Oh, I know why he’s doing this at age 81. The adrenaline rush just from that experience is totally intoxicating.” And then, of course, Lorne is also this unique cultural figure who also gets the power of that seat. There’s almost nobody in this country he can’t get on the phone in the next hour.

Who did you want to talk to for this film who wouldn’t talk to you? I do have a guess.

The main person was Aykroyd.

That was my guess. He didn’t go to SNL 50. Before that, he gave an interview where he was cagey about if he was going to go or not. So there’s something going on between them?

I will say, he said he was “interviewed out” on documentaries. And then he offered to send a letter. And I don’t know what I could have done with that. And I probably should have asked for the letter, just in case. But I was talking to one of Lorne’s producers and he said Lorne had dinner with Danny not that long ago. Since the 50th. So, I don’t know. Aykroyd, I think, is a complicated character.

The most fascinating era of Lorne for me is from 1980 until 1985, when he’s not doing “SNL.” How do you think that era changed him? He had “The New Show,” which failed. The film mentions when he comes back to “SNL” in 1985 he now wears a suit. Even the famous impression of him that Dana Carvey started, he didn’t talk like that in the ‘70s…

No, no, he didn’t! His voice changed. 

The Lorne we know now kind of started in 1985. What do you make of those five years for him?

I think a lot of things did happen. In 1980, he’s the hottest producer in entertainment. And all of the stars of “SNL” are making “Animal House” and “Caddyshack”…

…“The Blues Brothers.”

So now he thinks, “I’m done with television, I’m going to be a movie producer.” Back in the 1960s at the University of Toronto, he was one of the two main guys who thought they were going to be big film directors. The other was his classmate, David Cronenberg. And they had a bit of a rivalry in Toronto, which is interesting. From what I understand, Lorne gets a deal with MGM. He gets Frankin and Davis to write a script. He gets Jim Downey, he gets Tom Schiller to write a script. He’s working on a script. And the only thing to come out of that entire deal is the movie “Nothing Lasts Forever.” I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of this movie. 

Yes, it’s impossible to find. It played on TCM and it was a big deal. 

Exactly. They never released it. So his sort of Hollywood hopes are, in that moment, dashed. So he says, “I’ll go back to television, because that’s what I know.” Then “The New Show” is another disaster on top of it. At the same time, he’s not in the trenches doing the show every week.

I’m thinking about your question, how does he change? He befriends William Shawn, who is let go from his post as the editor of The New Yorker. Lorne gives him office space in his office. And I think just starts to kind of find his way into that New York City media elite. It’s funny, I think of him and Graydon Carter — these kids from the suburbs of Toronto — kind of become the epitome of New York American media.

That’s interesting. Because the movie also points out that in the 1970s, he was peers with the cast of “SNL.” That was never the case again once he came back. Now he’s their boss.

Yeah, and he says, during the first five years, he never fires a single person. Because, oh, we are the counterculture. We are all in this together to stick it to the man and bring the counterculture to television.

Focus Features will release “Lorne” in theaters nationwide on Friday, April 17.