How Losing ‘Avengers’ Brought Destin Daniel Cretton to ‘Spider-Man: Brand New Day’

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Destin Daniel Cretton gets emotional when discussing the premise for the latest Spider-Man entry, “Spider-Man: Brand New Day.” It’s the fourth in this series starring Tom Holland and the first to be directed by Cretton, with the previous three directed by Jon Watts.

It’s been quite the journey for Cretton to get here — taking over the biggest star in the Marvel universe — which I’m sure adds to the emotion of a story that hits home for him personally.

First of all, it’s kind of nuts that Holland has been playing Spider-Man for 10 years, as he was first introduced way back in 2016’s “Captain America: Civil War.” And what a big deal that was at the time, as it hinged on two major studios — Disney and Sony — coming to a financial agreement that would allow Spider-Man to become part of the MCU. Now Cretton, who previously directed 2021’s “Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings” (a massive success in a year people weren’t seeing movies; Cretton gives us an update on its sequel) and co-created IndieWire Honors winner “Wonder Man,” becomes the first director to direct both a Disney MCU film and a Sony MCU film.

Cretton’s path here was … unusual, which he gets into. After the success of “Shang-Chi,” Cretton was offered the next Avengers film, “Avengers: The Kang Dynasty.” When that version of the fifth Avengers film was scrapped for a whole host of reasons, Cretton was left without a film. Usually when a director loses a franchise film, that’s kind of … it. Instead, Cretton is now in charge of one of the most popular characters in the world.

When we last saw Spider-Man, he was at the mercy of a spell that Doctor Strange used to save the universe: a spell that makes it so that everyone who knows Peter Parker will forget him. People still remember Spider-Man, but no one knows Peter, which means his closest friends no longer know him. When the fourth film opens, we find Peter spending all his time working as Spider-Man, defeating low-level crooks and B-list villains. That is, until a mysterious entity shows up who can jump from person to person, as Peter himself is experiencing changes to his health and powers. (And that’s about all Sony wants you, or me, to know about the movie so far.)

So, what are those forgetting rules, exactly? Are there still photographs of Peter? Is he in his yearbook? Cretton says there were a lot of discussions about this.

But, on a deeper level, Cretton explains that, when he was in his 20s, he went through a period in which he felt very alone, even though he was surrounded by other people, just like Peter experiences in this film. Cretton said that’s a big reason he wanted to do this film, as he gets genuinely emotional talking about his own losses at that time in his life.

The following interview has been edited and condensed for clarity and length.

IndieWire: How do the rules work with people forgetting Peter?

Destin Daniel Cretton: [Laughs] We did have way too many conversations about how it works. And I honestly don’t think it fully matters. But the movie does follow some strict rules.

What are the strict rules?

I’m not sure I even want to get into it.

OK, let me ask this, is Peter Parker’s picture still in his high school yearbook?

We believe… gosh, we went back and forth. But we believe no.

Because I was wondering if Ned and MJ still have all these pictures with Peter, but they just have no clue who he is.

But there’s a reason why you don’t see any photos in our movie. Because I don’t fully know how to answer that. But what we definitely want to believe is that we didn’t actually go back in time and delete somebody so that everything changed from that point on. It’s really just a memory erasure of everybody’s brains. But! What happens to print or names? I can’t even start.

But in your mind he’s not in the yearbook anymore.

[Laughs] Well, just because I don’t want my characters thinking about stuff that has nothing to do with our movie.

Yeah, but you said you thought about it. I know you think about this kind of stuff.

I thought about it for a few days. But it has nothing to do with our movie. Well, that part doesn’t.

He doesn’t have a high school degree now. He needs to be able to get a job.

[Laughs] He’s a smart guy!

Yes, he is a smart guy.

He can have a career in whatever he wants! He’ll be fine!

I think everyone gets why there is not going to be “The Avengers: The Kang Dynasty.” But what was your experience? Having that not work out, but then getting Spider-Man? I’m sure there was disappointment…

I was feeling exactly that. I mean, it was a weird time in the industry, altogether. We were on strike. The whole time during the strike, I was wondering if this thing was going to happen. When that wound up falling through… yeah, I was sad. I try not to hang my emotions too much about circumstances outside of my control. When Kevin [Feige] asked me if I’d be interested in Spidey, I became very happy.

It’s just unusual for a director to not wind up doing a movie in a franchise, then get another one right away. How much time passed between “The Kang Dynasty” not happening to Spider-Man being suggested?

When “Avengers” wasn’t going to happen, I was a little bit scared that my relationship with Kevin maybe was going to change. But it didn’t at all. On the day that wasn’t going to work out, we were talking about what could work out. And Spidey was mentioned, but it wasn’t like an offer by any means. It took a bit before that happened. From the inside looking out, it’s not nearly as dramatic as it is from the outside looking in.

Tom Holland said that when “Brand New Day” was delayed six months so he could do “The Odyssey,” he thinks that extra six months allowed you to finish other projects so you could do the movie. Is that accurate?

Hmm. It’s accurate to say it allowed us more time to develop the movie.

Without that delay, would you have been able to direct this?

We would have done it.

You’re the first director to direct both a Disney MCU movie and a Sony MCU movie. What are the differences? Are there more people you have to talk to?

Yes.

OK.

Well, you’re not just dealing with Kevin. Kevin is a studio head. You also have Tom Rothman. You also have Amy Pascal. On paper, it looks daunting to be juggling three powerhouse producers and studio heads who have all worked on some of the biggest movies in history. And thank God they all like each other, and they all respect each other. It actually was quite wonderful working with them. They all helped to make the movie better at every point.

When Spider-Man was first discussed, did Kevin tell you, “This will be a little different than ‘Shang-Chi.’ There are some extra steps?”

Yeah, even Kevin said that working with Tom Rothman, in his experience, can make the movie better. Because you have another smart person giving notes. They are all very passionate about making the best movie possible. I found, to my delight, you don’t get into a position like that without having clear opinions and having some sort of healthy ego. But I found that nobody let their egos get in the way of having a harmonious decision-making process.

Back to where the last film left off, for you what are the benefits of that and what are the detriments? It’s kind of a clean slate, but also not really…

I didn’t really think of too much of the downsides. Because I signed onto it because it seemed like an exciting place to start. It’s a very simple idea — the erasure of yourself from existence. What’s really cool is you do get to have a scene where two characters are meeting for the first time, but the audience has a very deep understanding of where they should be, and they are not. So you have all that history the audience is already leaning forward on. And you have a character who is looking at the love of his life who doesn’t know who he is. That’s just a really emotional place to start.

I got into this project from the beginning because I just really connected with this idea of feeling alone, even when you’re surrounded by lots of people. Being in a transitional state in life, where you feel like… I don’t know. In my twenties, I felt like this, where I had gone through a big breakup, and some people close to me had passed away. It was very easy to feel like nobody else was going through this. And my gut instinct was, I’m just going to work. I’m not going to invest in other people. And I did. I just started making movies and short films and pouring myself into that.

That’s the place Peter is at the beginning of this movie. And this idea of neglecting all the things that keep you healthy, and the relationships that keep you healthy, is just something I really related to. So, I thought it was a really cool place to start.

It’s weird to call this movie “grounded,” since there are supernatural elements to it. But compared to where it was, it’s fun to watch Tom Holland’s Spider-Man just catch burglars.

Right. I mean, that was the point of the movie in that you can’t go bigger than the last one. You can’t go more fantastical. Or have the stakes be higher than however many universes that might explode. So, for this, it was like, how do we bring it down to the ground? Not just from an action design, but the emotionality of it.

“Shang-Chi” almost made half a billion dollars in 2021, a year people really weren’t seeing movies…

I know! We were scared no one was going to go.

It did so well, especially under the circumstances. How has a sequel not been made yet? I do realize you’re busy now with Spider-Man movies.

Yeah, Dave Callaham and I have been developing it. We’ve been jumping into it recently. So, I really hope it is going to happen.

Would you even have time to direct it? I feel like you have a whole trilogy of Spider-Man movies ahead of you.

[Laughs] I’ve got all the time in the world.

You recreate some famous Spider-Man comic covers in the film. Why did you want to do that? Other than “it’s cool.”

I mean … I thought it would be cool. For sure.

It is.

But we wouldn’t do it if it didn’t fit into our movie. So we weren’t just choosing covers because they were a cool issue; we were choosing covers because they helped us tell the story we wanted to tell. But it was really cool. To be able to imagine, not just the frame we are seeing, but sometimes you get to see the 10 seconds before – our imagining of what happens 10 seconds before. Or sometimes it’s our imaging of what happens a few seconds after the frame we all know. It was really fun to do.

Sony releases “Spider-Man: Brand New Day” in theaters on Friday, July 31.

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